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Polietes lardarius or meridionalis?
johnes81	#1 Posted on 31-10-2017 22:33
Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16	Berlin - October - 11mm female Using Hennig Die Fliegen der Palaearktischen Region Muscidae I think that this is Polietes meridionalis. However, Polietes meridionalis is not recorded for Berlin region. I don't think that the ovipositor matches the drawing by Hennig (yet he only draws tergite 8, epiproct and cerci). I think that the drawings of Hennig are inaccurate if you see my thread for Fannia aequilineata. I've seen two posts for both species and they look the same in my opinion: https://diptera.info/forum/attachments/dsc_1629.jpg https://diptera.info/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=43112 but this specimen in question has brownish yellow anterior spiracle and a golden yellow and brown parafacials. Once again, I've included tergite 8. The goal here is to confirm meridionalis or we call it lardarius and move on. https://diptera.info/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=14505&pid=66613 Thank You for your Time. johnes81 attached the following image: [115.15Kb] Edited by johnes81 on 31-10-2017 22:38 John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.


johnes81	#2 Posted on 31-10-2017 22:33
Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16	face johnes81 attached the following image: [96.71Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.


johnes81	#3 Posted on 31-10-2017 22:34
Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16	anterior spiracle in view johnes81 attached the following image: [128.11Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.


johnes81	#4 Posted on 31-10-2017 22:35
Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16	face microscope (my lightbulb blew, so I'm using worklights. the quality is very poor. sorry.) johnes81 attached the following image: [46.81Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.


johnes81	#5 Posted on 31-10-2017 22:35
Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16	anterior spiracle microscope (my lightbulb blew, so I'm using worklights. the quality is very poor. sorry.) johnes81 attached the following image: [71.42Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.


johnes81	#6 Posted on 31-10-2017 22:35
Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16	calypters white microscope (my lightbulb blew, so I'm using worklights. the quality is very poor. sorry.) johnes81 attached the following image: [46.05Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.


johnes81	#7 Posted on 31-10-2017 22:36
Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16	prosternum hairy at sides microscope (my lightbulb blew, so I'm using worklights. the quality is very poor. sorry.) johnes81 attached the following image: [81.97Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.


johnes81	#8 Posted on 31-10-2017 22:36
Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16	hind femur and tibia in microscope (my lightbulb blew, so I'm using worklights. the quality is very poor. sorry.) johnes81 attached the following image: [134.14Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.


johnes81	#9 Posted on 31-10-2017 22:37
Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16	tergite and sternite 8 with epiproct, hypoproct and cerci dissected - microscope (my lightbulb blew, so I'm using worklights. the quality is very poor. sorry.) johnes81 attached the following image: [68.19Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.


johnes81	#10 Posted on 01-11-2017 15:45
Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16	I see now that Hennig draws sternite 8 with the hypoproct. In this case, sternite 8 looks very similar to Polietes lardarius but I have no drawings of the ovipositor of Polietes meridionalis. Anyone have a copy of "Manual of Central European Muscidae"? sternite 8 attached. johnes81 attached the following image: [123.28Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.


johnes81	#11 Posted on 01-11-2017 15:46
Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16	Anyone know if the upper calypter is a valid separation? My Wife found a document attacking Pont and Falk about Polietes: Observations on the distinctions between Polietes lardarius (Fabricius) and Polietes meridionalis Peris & Llorente (Diptera: Muscidae) the claim in the book is as follows: "Dark frame of upper calypter due to the dark basis of the hairs of the calypter fringe." the upper calypter of the specimen in question has many hairs. vide attachment. johnes81 attached the following image: [117.17Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.


johnes81	#12 Posted on 15-11-2017 18:49
Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16	A short time later (November), I have found a similar Polietes but they are clearly different when viewing the ovipositor and spermathecae. I would like for someone to help me with this identification. The specimen in this post is either lardarius or meridionalis. I think that it is lardarius. Correct? Attached to this message is another view of this specimen. johnes81 attached the following image: [139.87Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.


johnes81	#13 Posted on 15-11-2017 18:49
Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16	here is a photo of the second specimen from November which is clearly different. So is this meridionalis? johnes81 attached the following image: [166.07Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.


johnes81	#14 Posted on 15-11-2017 18:51
Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16	comparing faces: left=lardarius? right=meridionalis? johnes81 attached the following image: [61.29Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.


johnes81	#15 Posted on 15-11-2017 18:52
Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16	spermathecae are clearly different: left=lardarius? right=meridionalis? johnes81 attached the following image: [45.12Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.


Nikita Vikhrev	#16 Posted on 15-11-2017 20:23
Member Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 9229 Joined: 24.05.05	Hi John and Nini. Hennig was the best person in Palaearctic Calyptrata in last 70 years or, probably, forever. All new publications are at least based on Hennig. According to Hennig's understanding - it is P. meridionalis. According to my preliminary and so far unpublished data: 1. P. meridionalis differs well from P. lardarius by male genitalia. 2. Specimens collected in late autumn always are P. meridionalis, whereas in early spring all specimens are P. lardarius. Nikita Vikhrev - Zool Museum of Moscow University


johnes81	#17 Posted on 15-11-2017 21:12
Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16	Hello Nikita and Thank You for replying. Which one is meridionalis? both are not the same species and I am correct about this assessment. The females can be reliably separated by ovipositor and spermathecae. I guess that noone has done this yet? there is also another very visible difference if you have a specimen. I am not concerned about outdated material because I always find things that don't match published data. I'm certain that lardarius is not a spring-based species and you know this is the case because you've posted photos of lardarius (female) dated from October: https://diptera.info/photogallery.php?photo_id=762 https://diptera.info/photogallery.php?photo_id=2253 one of these is lardarius but which one? John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.


johnes81	#18 Posted on 15-11-2017 21:29
Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16	Nikita, since you are publishing a document about Polietes, then I will refrain from posting more data about it. I don't want to cause any problems for you. All is good John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.

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