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 Cell question
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| Andre Jas |
Posted on 27-10-2006 18:01
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 Member Location: Georgsdorf, Germany Posts: 485 Joined: 04.10.04 |
Hi experts, Maybe this is a very stupid question (although they always told me, the only stupid questions were the ones never asked), but in IntKey they always talk about subapical cell. Is that the same as a discal cell? IntKey says "with a more or less closed subapical cell (bounded by veins 3 and 4). If I say "without" it rules out Muscidae, but there are Muscids without a sharp bend in vein 4. So I'm out in the cold here. Can someone fill me in? Preferably with an image? A million thanks, Andr? Jas Sorry, I'm trying but it's not easy. |
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| Nikita Vikhrev |
Posted on 27-10-2006 19:54
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 Member Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 9329 Joined: 24.05.05 |
It is part of the wing between veins R4+5, M1+2, rm and apical wing margin (if open). Some Muscidae have M1+2 curved to R4+5, but nevertheless M1+2 always finished in wing margin (open subapical cell). Some, for example, Tachinidae also have open subapical cell (Ectophasia), some ? closed (Phasia). Nikita Nikita Vikhrev - Zool Museum of Moscow University |
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| Nikita Vikhrev |
Posted on 27-10-2006 20:03
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Member Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 9329 Joined: 24.05.05 |
Viola, Dasyphora albofasciata, Muscidae. M1+2 curved, but subapical cell is still open. Nikita Nikita Vikhrev attached the following image:  [79.48Kb] Nikita Vikhrev - Zool Museum of Moscow University |
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| Tony Irwin |
Posted on 27-10-2006 20:14
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 Member Location: Norwich, England Posts: 7232 Joined: 19.11.04 |
Hi Andr? I'm not surprised you're confused by this. Inkey is incorrect. Most of the families it excludes when you choose "without" have no more or less closed subapical cell. This is a mistake, which I guess should be notified to the authors. Muscidae is one of those families which should be included by the key in both states (and strictly speaking Tachinidae should as well). Tony ---------- Tony Irwin |
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| Andre Jas |
Posted on 27-10-2006 20:20
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Member Location: Georgsdorf, Germany Posts: 485 Joined: 04.10.04 |
Hi Nikita, Thanks for reacting, but this I still don;t understand. The image is Helina reverso (a muscid) and I would say, this is NOT a (more or less closed) sub apical cell (as IntKey calls it). Still, when I select "without subapical cell", then Muscidae is out of the row with possibilities in IntKey. So that leaves only the conclusion that this Helina has a subapical cell and that the description in IntKey "(more or less closed)" is wrong. Is that a correct conclusion? Andr? Jas Edited by Andre Jas on 27-10-2006 20:21 |
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| Andre Jas |
Posted on 27-10-2006 20:21
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Member Location: Georgsdorf, Germany Posts: 485 Joined: 04.10.04 |
I can't seem to get the image in, but you catch my drift. Andr Edited by Andre Jas on 27-10-2006 20:22 |
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| Andre Jas |
Posted on 27-10-2006 20:26
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Member Location: Georgsdorf, Germany Posts: 485 Joined: 04.10.04 |
Hi Tony, I was just writing my answer to Nikita, when you reacted. That's why it's a bit mixed up now. But I'm glad I'm no idiot  . I will try to contact IntKey in order to give them the opportunity to correct things.Maybe I should put this in the Shoutbox? Because I have noticed more people on this forum, use this program. Thanks a lot, both of you! |
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| Andre Jas |
Posted on 27-10-2006 20:30
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Member Location: Georgsdorf, Germany Posts: 485 Joined: 04.10.04 |
I've just sent them an email about this error. Andr? Jas |
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| Kahis |
Posted on 27-10-2006 21:36
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 Member Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 1999 Joined: 02.09.04 |
"with a more or less closed subapical cell (bounded by veins 3 and 4)". How stupid is that? It conviniently covers all possible states and still manages to be wrong  . I HATE keys which rely on readers using ESP to find what the author ment.I guess the 2nd part of the couplet says "with a more or less open subapical cell " 
Edited by Kahis on 27-10-2006 21:38 Kahis |
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| Andre Jas |
Posted on 27-10-2006 22:14
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Member Location: Georgsdorf, Germany Posts: 485 Joined: 04.10.04 |
 Right on! Andr |
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