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Diptera.info :: Identification queries :: Diptera (adults)
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Ephydridae? Scatella? = Scatophila
johnes81
#1 Print Post
Posted on 18-07-2019 22:25
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Berlin - July 2019

I noticed a fly prancing around on the flowers of our balcony this evening. I managed to get a photo o it. I've seen them before but this time i have a photo. I think that could be Scatella species but i'm not sure. I have no material about Ephydridae. I'm hoping that someone can confirm the family and maybe the genus too.

Thank you.
johnes81 attached the following image:


[50.53Kb]
Edited by johnes81 on 19-07-2019 09:52
John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.
currently injured. healing from surgery.
 
Tony Irwin
#2 Print Post
Posted on 19-07-2019 00:57
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This is a Scatophila species - the costa stops at vein R4+5. In Scatella the costa continues to vein M. I'm not sure which species - if you had some other photos, or ideally a specimen, we might be able to say.
Tony
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Tony Irwin
 
johnes81
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Posted on 19-07-2019 09:50
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Thank you, Tony. I will look for more today and hopefully we have a specimen or two. I know nothing about this family so your info is very valuable to me. Thank you for the tip about the costa.

i think that it is less than 2mm. i had trouble making photos of it. I see alot of small flies around the flowers so i hope that i can find more today or tomorrow. I will will come back to this post when i can show more...
John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.
currently injured. healing from surgery.
 
johnes81
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Posted on 23-07-2019 20:34
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okay, i have a specimen now. I don't know when i can examine it. Maybe tomorrow but my recent Chlorpoidae find comes first. Anyway, i will examine the specimen soon, then return with some microscopic photos.

i do not have keys so it will be most important to know what i should photograph particularly for identification. Also can both males and females be identified and identified by genitalia?

i was unable to make clear photos again because it was on the street side of my flower box. I had to lean over the balcony a bit to try to get a photo but my shoulder is not well enough for this angle. I only got partial focus.
johnes81 attached the following image:


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John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.
currently injured. healing from surgery.
 
Tony Irwin
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Posted on 23-07-2019 21:54
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For Scatophila, it's best to photograph the face (from slightly above and to one side), a lateral view of head, thorax and abdomen, a dorsal shot of the thorax, and a wing. Even then we may need to hope it's a male and dissect the genitalia.
Tony
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johnes81
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Posted on 23-07-2019 22:45
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okay. Thanks Tony. Smile

I tried to find keys and ended up finding a pdf from Drake 2006 and i found a document about noctua group from Dr. Ozerov. Incidentally, i tried to key it by photo using Drake and i end up at S. cribrata. The notes mention 3-4 strong dc but i only see two. Yet the abdomen is strongly dusted and the wings clearly have a pattern, so cribrata is where i end up. I will examine the specimen and post some photos. I believe that i have a male, so whew! Smile

I shall return when i have microscopic material.
John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.
currently injured. healing from surgery.
 
johnes81
#7 Print Post
Posted on 24-07-2019 14:28
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i've looked at the female and what i believe to be a male.

i will now post photos of the supposed male for you to view. I have to admit that i find the keys from Drake to be quite mystifying if this is a Scatophila because the abdomen is gray and brown. His keys start with abdomen shining black or dusted and only fifth tergite black. I have my glasses on and i do not see black. I am frustrated with Drake. I'd prefer better keys if you know of any in existence. Drake is making me mad.

Anyway, here are the photos to get the ball rolling with this species.

here is a photo of the face of what should be a male.
johnes81 attached the following image:


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Edited by johnes81 on 24-07-2019 14:28
John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.
currently injured. healing from surgery.
 
johnes81
#8 Print Post
Posted on 24-07-2019 14:29
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here is the abdomen which is NOT black. hello, Drake?
i describe it as being gray and brown or taupe if you will.
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John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.
currently injured. healing from surgery.
 
johnes81
#9 Print Post
Posted on 24-07-2019 14:30
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the wing and the costa does not reach m vein.
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currently injured. healing from surgery.
 
johnes81
#10 Print Post
Posted on 24-07-2019 14:31
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bit of a lateral view of the thoracic bristles
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currently injured. healing from surgery.
 
johnes81
#11 Print Post
Posted on 24-07-2019 14:31
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dorsal view of gray and brown abdomen.
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currently injured. healing from surgery.
 
johnes81
#12 Print Post
Posted on 24-07-2019 14:32
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lateral view with my other microscope which is not very good. sorry.
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John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.
currently injured. healing from surgery.
 
johnes81
#13 Print Post
Posted on 24-07-2019 14:33
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this is a profile view of the female head. The head of the male is quite similar.
johnes81 attached the following image:


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John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.
currently injured. healing from surgery.
 
johnes81
#14 Print Post
Posted on 24-07-2019 14:34
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so are we able to make any progress with this?
i end up at cribrata and it doesn't match in my opinion and i end up at the unseen tetra. The keys are not helpful to me so maybe you have seen this before?

Thank you very much.
John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.
currently injured. healing from surgery.
 
Tony Irwin
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Posted on 24-07-2019 19:18
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To be fair to Martin, he did preface his Scatophila key with a warning, that it didn't really work! But you should have got the answer straight away - the face of the male has a concave depression. It is Scatophila caviceps. As you have a male, you can check the genitalia. This is quite a fiddly job, as they are very small. I would recommend taking off the whole abdomen, soak it in potassium hydroxide overnight, then use micropins (mounted in matchsticks) to tweak out the genitalia so that the internal structures can be seen. Don't attempt to do a full dissection - it will not end well!
Tony
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johnes81
#16 Print Post
Posted on 24-07-2019 19:41
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"[Zatwarnicki - brown mesonotum with two narrow presutural grey stripes between ac and dc, narrow post-sutural stripe outside posterior dc; scutellum brown, often with basal and apical grey spots. Nartshuk - Face of male concave, reddish brown; genae and frons grey. My notes – acs large, 3-4 paris; haltere yellow] "

this is what i thought was the description for cribrata. so the bold name caviceps is above the description? for some reason, i thought the name is supposed to be at the end of the description. like so:
bla bla bla ... caviceps

so, then, i keyed it to caviceps but read the name cribrata instead.

meantime, i looked at the specimen and yes the genitalia are very small. I have trouble with tiny flies too. I'll take my time with this one.

one more thing, if the description that i have posted here is for caviceps, then the keys work. However, the names should come after the description not before it.
Edited by johnes81 on 24-07-2019 19:42
John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.
currently injured. healing from surgery.
 
johnes81
#17 Print Post
Posted on 25-07-2019 18:15
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Hello Tony,

i've finished dissection today and from what i can see it matches caviceps well.
i use oil to clear the genitalia but it floats around too much for a day or two. so i cannot get good photos.
i will attach what i have in oil plus wing and face.

Thank you for your help.
johnes81 attached the following image:


[55.99Kb]
John and Nini. Naturalists not experts.
currently injured. healing from surgery.
 
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25.07.19 15:13
@Paul Beuk Thanks mate!! Best wishes!

22.07.19 15:09
Where are the meaning abbreviations of Lindner's series Die Fliegen der Palaearktischen Region, ie. f1: anterior femur, ...and what about "p"? (I don't possess volume I)

17.07.19 19:37
Yup, you can view the wing from above (dorsal side) and from beneath (ventral side).

16.07.19 13:31
Hey Dipterists! Quick Question: Vein r2+3 bare beneath. I've always assumed that this is below as in when you look at the wing flat. Am I right? Thank youuuuu! Pfft

18.06.19 08:07
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14.06.19 22:21
Thank you Elisabeth Wink

12.06.19 13:47
NICE TO SEE YOU BACK STEPHANE!

11.06.19 14:22
Thanks to you also Paul.

04.06.19 13:15
But thanks!

04.06.19 13:14
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