Diptera.info :: Identification queries :: Diptera (adults)
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 Tachinidae - Therobia leonidei
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| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 10-09-2007 15:51
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 Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9295 Joined: 05.06.06 |
Hi * locality - Almaceda - Castelo Branco - PORTUGAL * date - 2007.09.09 * size - 6 mm (medium fly) * habitat - woodland * substrate - on ground jorgemotalmeida attached the following image:  [194.65Kb] Edited by jorgemotalmeida on 14-09-2007 11:19 |
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| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 10-09-2007 15:52
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Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9295 Joined: 05.06.06 |
other...
jorgemotalmeida attached the following image:  [194.39Kb] |
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| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 10-09-2007 16:06
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Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9295 Joined: 05.06.06 |
very unusual the way that M vein bends!  |
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| crex |
Posted on 10-09-2007 16:16
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 Member Location: Sweden Posts: 1996 Joined: 22.05.06 |
jorgemotalmeida wrote: very unusual the way that M vein bends! We should really have a compiled document with drawings of wings with those different M veins for comparison. Edited by crex on 10-09-2007 16:17 |
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| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 10-09-2007 16:22
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Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9295 Joined: 05.06.06 |
I know. That idea was thought before.  More info - this fly has clearly subscutellum. I saw a few moments ago the specimen. Edited by jorgemotalmeida on 10-09-2007 16:22 |
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| Tony T |
Posted on 10-09-2007 17:15
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 Member Location: New Brunswick, Canada Posts: 663 Joined: 08.02.07 |
crex wrote: jorgemotalmeida wrote: very unusual the way that M vein bends! We should really have a compiled document with drawings of wings with those different M veins for comparison. At what taxonomic level is wing venation diagnostic for identification? It may be useful to help confirm an ID to species but I suspect many species have almost identical venation. Is it diagnostic at the geneneric level?, i.e., do all members of the same genus have identical venation. What about at the tribe level; Family level? So I guess my question is, although it might be nice to see all the various configurations, how useful would it be for identification purposes? |
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| ChrisR |
Posted on 10-09-2007 17:33
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 Administrator Location: Reading, England Posts: 7699 Joined: 12.07.04 |
It varies really but it is most often useful at a generic level but, saying that, some genera have species with different venation (eg. Actia). However some species even have slightly variable venation - degree of petiolation (eg. Eriothrix) or presence/absence of a vein appendix (eg. eg. Fausta)  I agree it would be useful to have a few examples of the more obscure venations though, like Jorge's specimen. |
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| crex |
Posted on 10-09-2007 17:48
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Member Location: Sweden Posts: 1996 Joined: 22.05.06 |
jorgemotalmeida: I know. That idea was thought before. Show me the link  |
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| crex |
Posted on 10-09-2007 18:04
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Member Location: Sweden Posts: 1996 Joined: 22.05.06 |
Chris Raper: It varies really but it is most often useful at a generic level but, saying that, some genera have species with different venation (eg. Actia). However some species even have slightly variable venation - degree of petiolation (eg. Eriothrix) or presence/absence of a vein appendix (eg. eg. Fausta) I agree it would be useful to have a few examples of the more obscure venations though, like Jorge's specimen. I think it is not only the bend in M1. It is also where it ends, sometimes it doesn't even reach wing margin. I think the DM-Cu vein also differs. If it can be used to distinguish genera it is very useful for amateurs like me or even if the only thing can be said that a wing venation leads us to either of four genera it would be useful. Chris mentioned variation. Is the variation of the wing venation among flies of the same species or genera too variable to use as an elimination guide to genera? |
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| Susan R Walter |
Posted on 10-09-2007 18:41
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 Member Location: Touraine du Sud, central France Posts: 1802 Joined: 14.01.06 |
It might also be useful to have images of species where there is considerable variation eg Muscina levida so you could show the limits of the variation ie one image showing a specimen with a barely perceptible gentle curve in M and one image showing a strong and more typical Muscinae curve. Showing the difference between a Muscinae curve and a Calliphoridae bend would be helpful for beginners. Also showing very characteristic venation which lead you immediately to a certain small group of species eg those Phasia's with that very rounded M that finish well in from the wing edge. Susan |
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| Tony T |
Posted on 10-09-2007 19:58
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Member Location: New Brunswick, Canada Posts: 663 Joined: 08.02.07 |
OK, it seems that wing venation could be useful (like Crex I too am an amateur and need all the hints towards an ID that I can get even though such hints may not be applicable to the New World (as Theo refers to us); almost wish I lived back in England). What is needed, however, is for the experts, such as Chris and Susan, to specify the species or genera where wing venation would be useful. They have made a start but more specifics are needed. Where would such iamges be placed - in the Glossary? |
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| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 10-09-2007 21:03
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Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9295 Joined: 05.06.06 |
or we can do an article! Why not? You can send to someone the photos. Wing venation is always useful. The most difficult is encounter a unique system that all dipterologists can agree. It is not easy.  That?s why all good books for ID should have a *very clear* nomenclature of morphology or, at least, indicate the font which is based!
Edited by jorgemotalmeida on 10-09-2007 21:04 |
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| crex |
Posted on 10-09-2007 21:35
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Member Location: Sweden Posts: 1996 Joined: 22.05.06 |
I'm always nagging about PDFs, it allows one to do so much more than in simple HTML pages. Best would be if the wing veins were drawn. I'm not sure how to do it so it is in right scale. They should also be put together so it's easy to compare. |
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| crex |
Posted on 10-09-2007 21:36
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Member Location: Sweden Posts: 1996 Joined: 22.05.06 |
I'm sorry I stole your thread Jorge |
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| Susan R Walter |
Posted on 10-09-2007 22:56
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Member Location: Touraine du Sud, central France Posts: 1802 Joined: 14.01.06 |
Tony - first of all, thank you for the compliment, but I am no expert. I know a little bit about a few relatively common species from a few families. I see no reason that photos of wings could not go in the gallery as an aid to ID. If you want to do a comparison, make a composite image and caption it, for example, Muscinae on left, Calliphoridae on right, and post it twice - once in each family. There wouldn't be so many of these, so I don't think they would cause a problem. I don't think you necessarily need to be comparing whole pages full of massed wing images with a view to getting to a family. I think probably better to use one of the existing keys to family level, using the wing images to clarify where there are similar features such as in the Muscinae/Calliphoridae situation and as a guide to what genera you might want to look at within a family. Ideally it needs to be used in conjuction with other characters of course, and it won't work for everything. Crex's idea of a PDF, and Jorge's of an article might work for a 'comparison page'. I could put something like this together I think, but not for a month or so, and only if I could request photos from forum members that I could manipulate appropriately. I would need suggestions from experienced dipterists for species to feature too. I'll take this offline when I have the time to do it if Paul thinks it is a good idea. I don't see the advantage of drawings in this situation. We should play to our strengths. This forum uses photos, many members are as interested in the photography as the ID of the fly. An additional resource like pictures of wings can be allowed to grow fairly naturally as people post photos and discussion emerges. Some of our members, like Tony T, take macro shots of details that are perfect for the sort of resource we are discussing. Other people, like me, will often ask that images get posted in the gallery and say why they think they are useful. Very often it would not have to be a special shot of a wing, but a cropped detail of a picture posted in the forum. Jorge could do that with the first image above for example. We should probably establish a convention that the wings are rotated so they all lie horizontally with tip to the left and base to the right so the images are easier to interpret, remember and compare to each other. Susan |
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| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 11-09-2007 10:03
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Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9295 Joined: 05.06.06 |
very juicy this thread! If the photos will go to diptera gallery I would suggest that those photos MUST appear in left upper corner in 1st page in each family. I have other suggestion. Below the name of all families in diptera.gallery it would be great to have a link for Complete description of the family and some genus. And in that link we could put/include info about wing venation, the main characters for family, and how we can distinguish among the hardest species . It would a beginning of <a href="http://www.diptera.info/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=19&thread_id=6906">DATABASE</a> that Nikita once talked. What do you think? Is it possible? We also must do something about the rights of those descriptions. It will take lots of work creating something like that and we must protect that huge work and effort. PDF, HMTL, DOC versions would be available on those descriptions... thanks a lot for your input crex, Tony T and specially Susan! Now, I want to know the genus of this fly. Theo? |
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| Susan R Walter |
Posted on 11-09-2007 13:22
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Member Location: Touraine du Sud, central France Posts: 1802 Joined: 14.01.06 |
Jorge This is different to Nikita's database idea. He is not so concerned with how to ID, but once an ID is made, what other information should we record about the life, environment and activities of these flies. I am really madly busy at the moment with my work's annual conference coming up next week (nothing to do with flies, sadly, but geographical information), then I am in France for a week. After that I will contact people by PM and we will see what we can pull together. Susan |
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| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 11-09-2007 14:14
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Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9295 Joined: 05.06.06 |
Susan We can add more that info concerning the ID. And then below that all info known, with complete bibliography known. And with links for some bibliography available on the net. It will not be easy. But the challenges are not easy, that's why they are appealing. Other thing: I doubt that EOL could grasp all species.. even within families you know well, there are plenty of information unknown! And there are so many hibridizations between the species. It is a hercalian task, almost impossible. *EOL - Encyclopaedia of the Life "Imagine an electronic page for each species of organism available everywhere by single access on comand." Wilson, E. O. |
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| Zeegers |
Posted on 11-09-2007 14:38
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Member Location: Soest, NL Posts: 18822 Joined: 21.07.04 |
Can we get a lateral head shot, please. It looks very peculiar, but I have some ideas.... Theo |
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| jorgemotalmeida |
Posted on 11-09-2007 15:10
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Member Location: Viseu - PORTUGAL Posts: 9295 Joined: 05.06.06 |
ok. I will try. But it will take a while! I hope deliver the photo this night... be tunned. |
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