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Asilinae Cerditini male--> Tolmerus pyragra
rafael_carbonell	#1 Posted on 20-05-2017 20:20
Member Location: Beuda, Girona, Catalonia Posts: 667 Joined: 23.03.06	Found draught in a pool, 2016, october the 9th (Iberia: Catalonia: Girona: Beuda, 350 masl) The german Germany key Geller-Grimm drove me to "Aneomochterus confusus" which in my region means "Cerdistini" (If i'm not wrong): "Dorsocentral and acrostichal bristles weakly developed or entirely lacking anterior to transverse suture; facial gibbosity restricted to lower third of face". Folllowing Tsacas 1968 I get to Aneomochterus confusus, but genitalia is quite different, from the other I have in collection. rafael_carbonell attached the following image: [120.93Kb] Edited by rafael_carbonell on 22-05-2017 07:26


rafael_carbonell	#2 Posted on 20-05-2017 20:23
Member Location: Beuda, Girona, Catalonia Posts: 667 Joined: 23.03.06	... rafael_carbonell attached the following image: [176.62Kb]


rafael_carbonell	#3 Posted on 20-05-2017 20:23
Member Location: Beuda, Girona, Catalonia Posts: 667 Joined: 23.03.06	... rafael_carbonell attached the following image: [270.34Kb]


rafael_carbonell	#4 Posted on 20-05-2017 20:25
Member Location: Beuda, Girona, Catalonia Posts: 667 Joined: 23.03.06	...4 rafael_carbonell attached the following image: [219.05Kb]


rafael_carbonell	#5 Posted on 20-05-2017 20:25
Member Location: Beuda, Girona, Catalonia Posts: 667 Joined: 23.03.06	...5 rafael_carbonell attached the following image: [249.18Kb]


rafael_carbonell	#6 Posted on 20-05-2017 20:26
Member Location: Beuda, Girona, Catalonia Posts: 667 Joined: 23.03.06	...6 rafael_carbonell attached the following image: [126.83Kb]


rafael_carbonell	#7 Posted on 20-05-2017 20:26
Member Location: Beuda, Girona, Catalonia Posts: 667 Joined: 23.03.06	...7 and... rafael_carbonell attached the following image: [98.5Kb]


rafael_carbonell	#8 Posted on 20-05-2017 20:27
Member Location: Beuda, Girona, Catalonia Posts: 667 Joined: 23.03.06	... 8 rafael_carbonell attached the following image: [31.11Kb]


Quaedfliegh	#9 Posted on 20-05-2017 23:15
Member Location: Tilburg Netherlands Posts: 2208 Joined: 18.05.10	Have a look at another genus, Tolmerus pyragra.... Greetings, Reinoud Field guide to the robber flies of the Netherlands and Belgium: https://www.jeugdbondsuitgeverij.nl/product/field-guide-to-the-robberflies-of-the-netherlands-and-belgium/ https://www.nev.nl/diptera/


rafael_carbonell	#10 Posted on 21-05-2017 21:00
Member Location: Beuda, Girona, Catalonia Posts: 667 Joined: 23.03.06	Thank you very much Reinaud I will look what I did wrong, and make me feel a bit angry Best wishes Rafael


Quaedfliegh	#11 Posted on 22-05-2017 00:46
Member Location: Tilburg Netherlands Posts: 2208 Joined: 18.05.10	How did you get to Cerdistus, which key did you use? Greetings, Reinoud Field guide to the robber flies of the Netherlands and Belgium: https://www.jeugdbondsuitgeverij.nl/product/field-guide-to-the-robberflies-of-the-netherlands-and-belgium/ https://www.nev.nl/diptera/


rafael_carbonell	#12 Posted on 22-05-2017 07:24
Member Location: Beuda, Girona, Catalonia Posts: 667 Joined: 23.03.06	Hi I used the german online Germany key Geller-Grimm that drive me to "Aneomochterus confusus" which in my region means "Cerdistini" (If i'm not wrong): "Dorsocentral and acrostichal bristles weakly developed or entirely lacking anterior to transverse suture; facial gibbosity restricted to lower third of face". But both characteristics then are wrong?


Quaedfliegh	#13 Posted on 22-05-2017 12:28
Member Location: Tilburg Netherlands Posts: 2208 Joined: 18.05.10	Not all details are often clearly visible and some are subject to interpretation and variable which makes it hard to reach the right conclusion. Experience will make up for that in time. On your third picture the pretty strong DC anterior of the transverse are clearly visible which illustrates the point of interpretation. Although the facial gibbosity isn't very big in this creature, it is still much bigger than in the "Cerdistini" a tribus which is now referred to as the Neomochtherini. I would add to the recognition for this tribus is the usually bulbous hypopygium, Once you have seen a lot of Tolmerus species and Neomochtherus species you will recognise them fairly easy :-) (in Europe) Greetings, Reinoud Field guide to the robber flies of the Netherlands and Belgium: https://www.jeugdbondsuitgeverij.nl/product/field-guide-to-the-robberflies-of-the-netherlands-and-belgium/ https://www.nev.nl/diptera/


rafael_carbonell	#14 Posted on 22-05-2017 18:51
Member Location: Beuda, Girona, Catalonia Posts: 667 Joined: 23.03.06	Thank you very much Reinaud, I will ask Piluca which keys is she using All the best, Rafael


Quaedfliegh	#15 Posted on 23-05-2017 00:22
Member Location: Tilburg Netherlands Posts: 2208 Joined: 18.05.10	:-) I can guess, but i am sure she would have recognised Tolmerus quickly, she has seen a lot of them. We use a lot of keys....but when i first started i made identical "mistakes" like you did and i know it is the actual experience that teaches how to interpret the keys. Once you know the different genera it becomes more easy because you can often skip large parts. I made an illustrated key to to the Asilinae in NW Europe in which i put all genera together to avoid the mistake to end up with the wrong genus. But even then it is possible to make a mistake. There will be an English version available in bookform in the near future.... :-) Greetings, Reinoud Field guide to the robber flies of the Netherlands and Belgium: https://www.jeugdbondsuitgeverij.nl/product/field-guide-to-the-robberflies-of-the-netherlands-and-belgium/ https://www.nev.nl/diptera/


rafael_carbonell	#16 Posted on 23-05-2017 00:28
Member Location: Beuda, Girona, Catalonia Posts: 667 Joined: 23.03.06	Thanks again If is not in dutch I will buy you one book,... Meanwhile, where I can find a "tree" of subfamilies, tribes and genus of asilinae (including Neomochtherini and so on)?


Quaedfliegh	#17 Posted on 23-05-2017 00:34
Member Location: Tilburg Netherlands Posts: 2208 Joined: 18.05.10	Although it is far from perfect, i still use Engel 1930 a lot. But maybe Piluca knows a key in Spanish and maybe she could write one herself :-) Edited by Quaedfliegh on 23-05-2017 00:47 Greetings, Reinoud Field guide to the robber flies of the Netherlands and Belgium: https://www.jeugdbondsuitgeverij.nl/product/field-guide-to-the-robberflies-of-the-netherlands-and-belgium/ https://www.nev.nl/diptera/


Piluca_Alvarez	#18 Posted on 23-05-2017 07:12
Member Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 2431 Joined: 06.11.10	Hi, guys Sorry I didn't reply this thread, I have been out for days and didn't see it... Yes, this is my good old friend Tolmerus pyragra , one of the most common autumn Asilinae in Spain. Which, by the way, drove me mad at first but Reinoud IDed it for me years ago now and, as he points out, it is not so difficult to recognize once you get used to it. Although it is far from perfect, i still use Engel 1930 a lot. But maybe Piluca knows a key in Spanish and maybe she could write one herself :-) Yes, I use Engel a lot too. He makes me often very angry but still is the best around. Reinoud is being very polite talking about this work It is not only far from being perfect, it is far from being simply 'good' for the Iberian Peninsula. But dear Engel did what he could in his time and we are thankful that at least this work exists. And, unfortunately, no Iberian key exists Writing useful keys for the Iberian Peninsula is my golden dream but first we need to know what really exists here. A long way to go yet...


rafael_carbonell	#19 Posted on 23-05-2017 08:18
Member Location: Beuda, Girona, Catalonia Posts: 667 Joined: 23.03.06	Thanks, Piluca :-) (Can you read german directly or did you have an english/spanish version?) Edited by rafael_carbonell on 23-05-2017 08:19


Piluca_Alvarez	#20 Posted on 23-05-2017 08:41
Member Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 2431 Joined: 06.11.10	Hola, Rafael I can read German (it was fate that I had the whim to learn German when I was in my twenties; I had no idea how useful that was going to be years after!!) although not fluently. Not complaining as it is enough to study Asilidae Unfortunately none of the main works are translated into English or Spanish. That is why Reinoud's work is going to be so useful for non-German speakers

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