Diptera.info :: Identification queries :: Diptera (adults)
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 unknown fly
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| eguzki |
Posted on 04-12-2006 21:38
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 Member Location: Perkáta, Hungary Posts: 1140 Joined: 12.10.06 |
Location: Hungary Date: 2006-06-02 Habitat: Bushy area Another poor quality picture but maybe shows some characters. eguzki attached the following image:  [98.21Kb] |
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| Xespok |
Posted on 04-12-2006 21:49
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 Member Location: Debrecen, Hungary Posts: 5550 Joined: 02.03.05 |
This is a Tachinid for Theo.
Gabor Keresztes Japan Wildlife Gallery Carpathian Basin Wildlife Gallery |
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| Zeegers |
Posted on 06-12-2006 18:07
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Member Location: Soest, NL Posts: 18539 Joined: 21.07.04 |
Thanks Quite typical: Phyllomyia volvula Theo |
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| eguzki |
Posted on 07-12-2006 16:25
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Member Location: Perkáta, Hungary Posts: 1140 Joined: 12.10.06 |
Thank you Theo!! I hope I will meet to this fly again in the future and can able to take a better pic from it. |
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| Andre Jas |
Posted on 08-12-2006 10:43
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 Member Location: Georgsdorf, Germany Posts: 485 Joined: 04.10.04 |
Hi Theo, Shouldn't it be Phyllomyia volvulus? (www.nederlandsesoorten) Andr? Jas |
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| Zeegers |
Posted on 08-12-2006 10:50
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Member Location: Soest, NL Posts: 18539 Joined: 21.07.04 |
Well, good question. First of all, -myia is female (grammatically) Secondly, the Code prescribes that adjectives should be inclined correctly. So, when Tabanus bimaculatus is transferred to the genus Hybomitra (as example), the correct new name becomes Hybimitra bimaculaTA, despite the fact that the original name was bimaculaTUS. So, the final question is: what is volvulus ? I myself have never succeeded in mastering the etymology of 'volvulus' completely. It might be a case of 'potjeslatijn' (= bad modern latin). But in my mind the best way to treat volvulus is as a adjective. If so, then the above leads to 'Phyllomyia volvula' But if anyone has a better idea on the etymology of volvulus, please enlighten me Theo |
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| Kahis |
Posted on 08-12-2006 12:01
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 Member Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 1999 Joined: 02.09.04 |
Phyllomya or Phyllomyia ? I've seen both forms used.
Kahis |
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| Paul Beuk |
Posted on 08-12-2006 12:16
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 Super Administrator Location: Netherlands Posts: 19244 Joined: 11.05.04 |
Phyllomyia according to my information.
Paul - - - - Paul Beuk on https://diptera.info |
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| markop |
Posted on 08-12-2006 12:47
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 Member Location: Crete, Greece Posts: 91 Joined: 13.10.06 |
I'm no dipterist, but I know my Greek  Paul is right, "myia" is the correct postfix. It's the greek word for "fly". |
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| Zeegers |
Posted on 08-12-2006 21:07
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Member Location: Soest, NL Posts: 18539 Joined: 21.07.04 |
Hi Markop You are right, and yet Was live that simple. Some older authors, like Rondani in particular, had a very bad spelling of greek and latin. Actually, Rondani spelled Italian, writing 'e' instead of 'ae' and 'mya' instead of 'myia' and so on. According to the current rules of nomenclature, these obvious mistakes may not be corrected. It is my personal view that a) the matter of spelling is a completely unscientific issue  that rules of nomenclature so make working in science as easy as possiblec) and that therefore obvious mistakes in spelling should be corrected. I'm afraid this view is in the minority. So, I (and you) write Phyllomyia, whereas this still might be incorrect to the lawyers of nomenclature. I leave the answer of the question according to their rules up to them. Theo Zeegers |
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| markop |
Posted on 12-12-2006 14:14
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Member Location: Crete, Greece Posts: 91 Joined: 13.10.06 |
Hi Theo, this is really interesting. I didn't know there was so much controversy over using grammar in taxonomy... For what it's worth, I agree with your views, they make perfect sense to me Best regards, Stavros Markopoulos |
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| diphascon |
Posted on 12-12-2006 17:16
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Member Location: Posts: 85 Joined: 26.07.05 |
Zeegers wrote: So, the final question is: what is volvulus ? I myself have never succeeded in mastering the etymology of 'volvulus' completely. It might be a case of 'potjeslatijn' (= bad modern latin). But in my mind the best way to treat volvulus is as a adjective. Theo Hello, the main context the word "Volvulus" crossed my way is as a disease (some rotation of the intestine, Volvulus intestini, e.g.). It seems to say "something distorted" or "a distorted condition of sth.". And this is a noun. There is an indication in the genus "Onchocerca" (a parasitic worm), where "Onchocerca volvulus" is obviously the accepted correct name. So I tend to go for "Phyllomyia volvulus", whatever the idea behind this might be. cheers - martin adler |
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| Robert Nash |
Posted on 12-12-2006 18:04
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Member Location: Ulster Museum, Belfast, Ireland Posts: 288 Joined: 11.11.05 |
Rondani's errors were constantly corrected by Haliday http://en.wikiped...ry_Haliday who trained as a classical scholar. Not only did Rondani ignore this but changed names Haliday sent to him.Also, Rondani issued changed multiple issues of the Prodromus causing many nomenclature problems. Even so he was a great dipterist. Theo is right spelling errors should be corrected. |
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| Zeegers |
Posted on 12-12-2006 19:31
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Member Location: Soest, NL Posts: 18539 Joined: 21.07.04 |
Thanks for pointing out the volvulus It is clear that volvulus is somehow associated with volvare = to rotate. In this case, the fly rotates with its wings (like many Tephritidae). In which case volvulus would mean 'rotated'. But my dictionary doesn't give this form. And yes, being a bad latinist doesn't make you a bad dipterologist. I agree that Rondani was state of the art in his time, as far as dipterology is concerned. Theo |
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| eguzki |
Posted on 13-12-2006 18:37
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Member Location: Perkáta, Hungary Posts: 1140 Joined: 12.10.06 |
In the Classical latin, volvulus is a derivative with a diminutive suffix ("ul" of the volvus (bulbus) means "bulb".In the word volvula we can also find the diminutive suffix "ul" therefore volvula derived from volva (vulva, bulba) means caul, tegument, womb, uterus etc. Whereas it is a noun it cannot be a specific attributive because it must put either in genitive case or form an adjective from it. As far as I know it is a valid homonym even if incorrect gramatically because this is the first naming of the species. |
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| Zeegers |
Posted on 13-12-2006 19:11
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Member Location: Soest, NL Posts: 18539 Joined: 21.07.04 |
Hi eguzki What you say makes a lot of the sense from the grammatical point of view. However, what is the connection between 'bulb' and Phyllomyia ? My personal guess is that volvulus is supposed to be derived from volvare = to rotate. This does make sense, since this fly can be seen moving its wings in a way quite like many Tephritidae, so with a rotation. If my view is correct (which, I think, is grammatical not possible, neverthless it could be true, see Rondani above), it would be an adjective and therefore it could and must be declined. So, to me the matter is still open, however, I personally favour 'volvula' at the moment. Theo |
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| diphascon |
Posted on 14-12-2006 11:19
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Member Location: Posts: 85 Joined: 26.07.05 |
Zeegers wrote: Hi eguzki What you say makes a lot of the sense from the grammatical point of view. However, what is the connection between 'bulb' and Phyllomyia ? Theo Hi Theo What eguzki probably wanted to say is that "volvulus" has the shape and appearance of a diminutive of "volvus", which looks like a noun, like "bulbus" (and "bulbulus" would be a small "bulbus", e.g.). This view might be supported by the fact that "volvulus" seems not to be any known form of "volvare" , as you mentioned before. So I tend to assume that "volvulus" is a noun. I do not share eguzkis view that, if it was an adjective, the name "Phyllomyia volvulus" would be valid if it was the form of the original description. Grammer is subject to correction resp. must be correct in binomes. cheers - martin |
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| Igor Grichanov |
Posted on 15-12-2006 15:23
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 Member Location: St.Petersburg, Russia Posts: 1687 Joined: 17.08.06 |
volva, volvula, volvus, volvulus, all these words are nouns with different meanings. Fauna Europaea gives original combination: Musca volvulus Fabricius 1794 and the genus name Phyllomya (sic!) Changeable adjectives would be volvulatus, volvulaceus, volvuliformis etc. Igor Grichanov |
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| Zeegers |
Posted on 15-12-2006 17:33
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Member Location: Soest, NL Posts: 18539 Joined: 21.07.04 |
Hi Igor That would be interesting. What is the meaning of 'volvus' ? And what is your source ? Thanks Theo |
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| Igor Grichanov |
Posted on 15-12-2006 19:11
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Member Location: St.Petersburg, Russia Posts: 1687 Joined: 17.08.06 |
Hi Theo, Google is the main source if you havw enough time. Volvus has probably different meaning in Medicine, Botany and Zoology (roll or loop, basically). Vulva (volva) means probably bulb. Best wishes Igor Grichanov |
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