Gallery Links
Users Online
· Guests Online: 8

· Members Online: 1

· Total Members: 4,935
· Newest Member: hellehvitved
Forum Threads
Theme Switcher
Switch to:
Last Seen Users
· nowaytoflyOnline
· weia02:16:59
· guplox02:49:35
· Juergen Peters03:00:28
· Tony Irwin03:03:06
· picotverd05:12:48
· John Carr05:29:11
· Karsten Thomsen05:32:39
· varganimrod06:08:18
· Jordi Clavell06:11:26
Latest Photo Additions
View Thread :: Miscellaneous :: General queries
Who is here? 1 guest(s)
 Print Thread
Is it the end of Limoniidae?
#1 Print Post
Posted on 14-06-2010 21:18
User Avatar


Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 191
Joined: 12.08.06

Phylogenetic synthesis of morphological and molecular data reveals new insights into the higher-level classification of Tipuloidea (Diptera)
Systematic Entomology, Volume 35 Issue 3, Pages 526 - 545


Tipuloidea, the crane flies, are a diverse lineage of true flies (Insecta: Diptera) whose phylogenetic classification and taxonomy remain a challenge. Here we present the results of a quantitative phylogenetic analysis of Tipuloidea based on combined morphological characters (adult, larvae and pupae) and nuclear gene sequence data (28S rDNA and CAD). Forty-five species, from 44 genera and subgenera, were sampled, representing the four putative families of Tipuloidea (Cylindrotomidae, Limoniidae, Pediciidae and Tipulidae sensu stricto). Analyses of individual datasets, although differing in overall topology, support the monophyly of several major lineages within Tipuloidea. Parsimony and Bayesian analyses using individual morphological and molecular datasets resulted in incongruent topologies. Increased resolution and tree support was obtained when both datasets (morphology and genes) were combined, in both combined evidence parsimony and Bayesian analyses, than when analysed separately. The recovered consensus phylogeny was not consistent with any previously proposed Tipuloidea classification, with previous importance assigned to character states shown here to represent losses and reversals seen as a major factor influencing erroneous classification. The results provided here, together with evidence from previous analyses, were used to append the Tipuloidea classification to supported evolutionary lineages. Tipuloidea is presented as two families: Pediciidae and Tipulidae. Pediciidae is recovered as the sister group to all remaining Tipuloidea. Our current phylogenetic hypothesis is not consistent with the existing subfamilial classification of the 'Limoniidae', which is paraphyletic with respect to a well-supported Tipulinae + Cylindrotominae clade, whereas the three 'limoniid' subfamilies are para- or polyphyletic. The recognition of 'Limoniidae' as a valid monophyletic family is discouraged and the subfamilies of 'Limoniidae' are amended and placed within Tipulidae. A revised phylogenetic classification is proposed for the crane flies based on a synthesis of evidence from multiple genes and morphology.
Dmitry Gavryushin
#2 Print Post
Posted on 14-06-2010 21:38
User Avatar


Location: Moscow region, Russia
Posts: 3302
Joined: 17.10.05

An interesting new work of the Courtney Laboratory Research Group.
Paul Beuk
#3 Print Post
Posted on 14-06-2010 21:52
User Avatar

Super Administrator

Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19170
Joined: 11.05.04

Interesting, yes, but unless we want to have the same sh*t happening in insects (and in our case Diptera) as did in plants (many families overhauled and no-one really knowing what genus belongs where and whether a family is still a family) we should perhaps start to accept para- and polyphyletic families or even genera (then we have settled the Drosophila melanogaster issue as well).

- - - -

Paul Beuk on
Gunnar M Kvifte
#4 Print Post
Posted on 15-06-2010 08:53

Location: Kassel, Germany
Posts: 436
Joined: 18.08.09

It was us dipterists' idea to have monophyly as a criterion for taxonomic validity to begin with. It is a good criterion, because it makes the classification testable and thus scientific - with the accumulation of additional evidence it gets progressively more accurate. However, for practical reasons we should be very conservative in what we consider sufficient evidence - to maintain a sense of stability, most family- and genus-level groups should be defined on the basis of synapomorphies rather than on clade-based definitions.
I will myself probably continue classifying Tipuloids as Tipulidae, Cylindrotomidae, Pediciidae and "Limoniidae", with the latter family in quotation marks to recognize its paraphyly. A new family-level classification should wait until synapomorphies are found grouping the various "Limoniid" subfamilies.
Paul Beuk
#5 Print Post
Posted on 15-06-2010 09:09
User Avatar

Super Administrator

Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19170
Joined: 11.05.04

'Us dipterists' idea' meaning Hennig's? Wink It is certainly a criterion but at times when evolution is hypothesized to have been in many consecutive splits with small groups then we either end up with an enormous multitude of groups at a certain level or we get a very large inclusive group that harbours many different well-recognizable groups that have been in existences for a long time (like McAlpine's proposal to lump Heleomyzidae, Sphaeroceridae and a number of smaller families into Heteromyzidae).

Sometimes it is also good to relaise that what may have seemd a good idea may not be one in all circumstances. Is it worth our while to disrupt the whole classification within orders or families because we want to have our hypothesis of evolution reflected in the classification at all times? Something we can have a nice, long discussion about. Grin

- - - -

Paul Beuk on
#6 Print Post
Posted on 16-06-2010 12:14
User Avatar


Location: Amsterdam, NL
Posts: 1102
Joined: 29.05.09

Prince would call them TATFKAL (the atypical Tipuloidea formerly known as Limoniidae)
Louis Boumans
#7 Print Post
Posted on 04-09-2010 19:04

Location: NO Oslo
Posts: 262
Joined: 09.06.04

Unlike in the case of flowering plants, there are very few people on earth who are familiar with the terms Limoniidae, Pediciidae, etc. anyway. And of this selected group many will be interested in the outline of the phylogenetic relationships among the larger clades. These relationships are easier to understand and memorise if reflected in the nomenclature.
#8 Print Post
Posted on 04-02-2011 17:44

Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 103
Joined: 17.02.05

In my opinion, it is more conservative to recognize the two families, or maybe even only one "Tipulidae". Families are convenience groupings for human understanding (as are all higher taxa), and are the level most non-experts learn. The more people who can recognize a monophyletic Tipulidae, the better. The experts in the group can battle out which subgroupings to recognize at the subfamily level.
Brian Brown
NH Museum of Los Angeles Co.
Jump to Forum:
Similar Threads
Thread Forum Replies Last Post
Limoniidae sp.? Diptera (adults) 3 27-10-2023 16:50
Limoniidae? -> Anisopodidae, Sylvicola sp. Diptera (adults) 3 25-10-2023 10:39
Limoniidae? --> Idioptera linnei Diptera (adults) 5 20-10-2023 19:37
Limoniidae(?) from Suriname Diptera (adults) 3 03-09-2023 04:09
Limoniidae -- id Diptera (adults) 2 22-08-2023 21:42
Date and time
11 December 2023 03:19


Not a member yet?
Click here to register.

Forgotten your password?
Request a new one here.
Temporary email?
Due to fact this site has functionality making use of your email address, any registration using a temporary email address will be rejected.

Please, help to make
possible and enable
further improvements!
Latest Articles
Syrph the Net
Those who want to have access to the Syrph the Net database need to sign the
License Agreement -
Click to Download

Public files of Syrph the Net can be downloaded HERE

Last updated: 25.08.2011
You must login to post a message.

06.09.23 01:11
How to move a thread from "diptera" to "asilidae" ? i.e. (Tolmerus cf cingulatus)

17.08.23 15:23

17.08.23 13:54
Tony, I HAD a blank in the file name. Sorry!

17.08.23 13:44
Tony, thanks! I tried it (see "Cylindromyia" Wink but don't see the image in the post.

17.08.23 11:37
pjt - just send the post and attached image. Do not preview thread, as this will lose the link to the image,

16.08.23 08:37
Tried to attach an image to a forum post. jpg, 32kB, 72dpi, no blanks, ... File name is correctly displayed, but when I click "Preview Thread" it just vanishes. Help!

23.02.23 21:29
Has anyone used the Leica DM500, any comments.

27.12.22 21:10
Thanks, Jan Willem! Much appreciated. Grin

19.12.22 11:33
Thanks Paul for your work on keeping this forum available! Just made a donation via PayPal.

09.10.22 17:07
Yes, dipterologists from far abroad, please buy your copy at veldshop. Stamps will be expensive, but he, the book is unreasonably cheap Smile

Render time: 1.37 seconds | 182,606,456 unique visits