---

Hello, a question concerning the genus Carcelia. Note three katepisternal bristles, tergites with distinct black bands at the posterior edge, tergite 5 only half dusted, like in Carcelia kowarzi. But I am not sure, because it has narrow vertex, like in Carcelia lucorum. I have several specimens with these characters again. Thank you in advance.

---

OK

---

OK

---

OK

---

We can't see the arista completely.

Are you sure it is not gnava ?

And then again, three sternopleural bristles is a bit odd in Carcelia, isn't it ? Hind coxa has setulae on backside, I guess ?


Thanks


Theo

---

Arista thickened between 1/3 and 2/5, difficult to be sure.
Tergite 4 with irregular setulae or very weak D-discal setae, again not sure.
The important information if tergite 5 only half dusted in C. gnava? I do not have this species for the moment for the comparison.

---

Gnava is mostly reared and little seen in the field.
However, it totally lacks any kind of discal setae or seta-like hairs. So it can''t be gnava.

So please let me know about the setulae on hind coxa.

The proclinate orbital setae seem enormous in the first pic, is that correct ?

Theo

---

If you look at the photo of the abdomen from the side, you will see slightly longer hairs, difficult to decide if they are discal setae. Yes, setulae on the hind coxa are present of course.
The proclinate orbital setae are equivalent, only the anterior looks aside a bit.

---

There are many weird Carcelia, but I just checked Tschorsnig & Richter and aomething with 3 stpl setae cannot be Carcelia.
(OF course, you might have a very aberrant specimen)

So, sorry to bother with new questions, but what might help
* number of bristles on humerus and setting of basal three (straight line or triangle).
* the first posterior supraalar seta (aka prealar) is broken off in the picture. Are we really sure it is large ?
* topcel open or closed ?


Thanks


Theo

---

Sorry, I'm oldfashioned

sternopleural = katepisternal,

for those readers who try to follow this thread.


Theo

---

There is not one specimen, as I noted above! Tschorsnig & Richter is a good point, but I saw in the Soviet key for East Europe that Carcellia may have three sternopleural bristles (see Zimin et al. 1970 in Bey-Bienko).
Three HU in a triangle of 100°.
Prealar seta is present on the other side, it is clearly large.
Opening of top-cell is three times wider then diameter of vein.

---

I'm lost.
HU in a strong triangle is not Carcelia.
You would key out to Amelibaea with the features mentioned. However, the vertex is too narrow, the gena too narrow, the bristles and hairs on parafrontal don't fit.l
(I have one male).
Neither Carcelia nor Amelibaea have the ocellars lateroclinate.
With hairy coxa 3, there is not much more left:
Tryphera is black and has topcell stalked, it is clearly not Huebneria....

You specimen disagrees with Carcelia now on two points: 3 STPL and setting of HU.

In my English translation of Zimin in BeiBeinko I don't read anything on 3 STPL in Carcelia and Richter 2004 in Russian Far East is also very clear on this: 2 STPL.

So if 3 STPL occur in Carcelia, it is pretty aberrant.

Finally, there are some Phebellia with hairy hind coxa from China and Japan. I have one such a specimen from Finland. BUt I don't see this getting a Phebellia: head profile does not fit. only 3 HU....

So, I'm lost


Theo

---

Sorry, my mistake, the 3 STPL is mentioned in the key to genera by Zimin et al. Note, however, that Zimin did include Senometopia. None of the species of Carcelia ss. Zimin mentioned, is known for 3 STPL to my knowledge.


Theo