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Strymon river bank, far northern Greece, 24th Novemeber 2009. On a dead dog of course. I think this is a heleomyzid.

I must admit i am a bit confused about how other people will see these images. On the Mac they look fine, but as I don't have photoshop or much else on the Mac yet I loaded the images, converted to Tiffs, onto a stick to move them to the ordinary PC, where I converted them to 'for the web' as Photoshop was refusing to save them as jpgs in 'save as'. They look dull and dark on the PC, as jpgs or as tiffs, but I have left them alone except for resizing them down to 650pp wide and saving. I will be interested to hear what they look like on other people's screens - bright or dull??????

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and the male, I think.

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Hi Gordon, the fly at bottom is a male of Centrophlebomyia furcata (Piophilidae). I think the fly at top is the female, but I'm less sure. Very nice find ! :)

The pictures are correct !

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This species (and others like it) are among the Holy Grails of diptera: please go back to the unfortunate hound and collect some : you will find willing takers (me included !).

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Hi Gordon

Colours and saving file: I had similar problems as you write and found (for my work) following reason: working on one side with ProPhoto-RGB and on the other side with normal Adobe RGB. Since I made the whole workflow without ProPhoto-RGB it is working right. It's only an idea . . . I could imagine that Mac works with the "greater" "Farbraum" of ProPhoto-RGB . . . .
Kind Regards, Brigitte

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Hmmm nice;) Known from Czech Republic and Sardinia according to FE - so probably a new record for Greece.

Phil - I have been out to the dog again, the Ravens have nearly finished with it, and I have I think 3 of the target species plus a few other things - including the next fly I will post pictures of. I can send you 2 and Stephane a female if she would like.

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YOU MEAN IF HE WOULD LIKE IT GORDON :D
The proof is in the Portraits Gallery.:D..Talk about the Greek Government messing up...(Shoutbox) :P

Organsmoother

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Ahhh Stepharn - my sincerest apollogies I had been reading Stephanee. Now I am going off to suffer horribly somewhere else. I'm sure Roger enjoyed it all way too much.:(

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By the way, in shoutbox, Roger called Andre many times Andrea. Sorry for pointing that out Roger :D

Anyway, a very nice found, this fly is! Congratulations! All I found nowadays are Trichocerids and Heleomyzids and Platypezids.

Nice day to everybody :)

Walter (by the way, in Hungary it is written 'Valter', which means I was regularly called Falter in Germany)

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That Walter, is/was a running joke and was intended,
Gerard Pennards became Geraldine, I in returned was called among other things Rogaldino...just having a laugh, unlike Gordon who mistook Stephane for a girl/woman. I think he has been out in the sun for too long....:D

Organsmoother.....Anagram of Roger Thomason in case you are still confused :P

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Didn't realise that :) Well, I think my name has no anagrams (Walter Pfliegler) :D

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Could be worthwile to put another carcass close to the dog carcass and maybe protect it from the ravens with a net. Pig, goat, sheep, dog or any road kill you can get your hands on. I believe that the litterature states that they are found preferably on carcasses of larger mammals. Congratulations to a nice find!

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Yes please: good man ! By the way another anagram for Roger is no other orgasm: just had to share that !

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And I suppose that they are called bone-skippers for a reason and it might pay off to visit the bones long after the ravens have left. You might want to put the bones in a pile and protect it from scavengers with netting. Who knows what will turn up there....I attached a picture of Thyreophora cynophila, a species to look out for!

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I heard Thyreophora and alikes may be virtually extinct from Europe, it would be great to find one!

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Come, come Phil, that made the Lipsh Writhe (enough to make me lisp) at the thought of it. Still life in the old dog yet...which is more than can be said for the one in Gordon's Pics.

Moe Shortorgan ;).....thanks for that one StephenR (I knew it would come in handy) :P

Ex Ewan Kerr Award Winner (Organsmoother)

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LOveryL!!! :D:D:D

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Government funding official?

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And I call him Rogerita :D

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I thought that was only in private....now everyone knows.
And me a big hairy-assed Viking too..how is this going to look....:D

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@ pwalter: It's true that it has not been seen for over 150 years, but then again not many people scrutinize skeletonized carcasses for flies.

@ Stephen R: Should be. I've always funded all my carcass experiments out of my own pocket though.

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Meant putting a Government Funding Official out for bait, as Gordon's funding has ceased....:| as in his Shoutbox Comment. Not asking for funding for a carcass :)...which Department would you ask?

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OK - As it happens I noticed a medium sized dog road-kill on the way back from the site yesterday,:P so just now I have moved it to the Roupel Gorge site (which is some 50 ms or more from the nearest road). I don't have any mesh so we will have to share it with the Ravens. I didn't have much time today but I did a few sweeps with the net over the old bones but on checking now I see no Centrophlebomyia furcata in the catch.:( I will have more time for carcass watching tomorrow.:D

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Roger my funding did not cease:| - there never was any :@- just a lot of promises which now seem to have been empty. Three times the EU has agreed to pay for this survey to be done and three times the Greek government have messed it up by taking so long to sign a few pieces of paper that the deadline for taking the money has passed (or in this case will have passed at the end of the year, but they assure me nothing will be done before then). It's just a case of total indolance and incredible incompetance.:@

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Good luck, and keep us posted about your carcass findings!

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Just out of curiosity, is this the Kerkini you mean: http://tiny.cc/Ke...

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Dear Gordon, now I have finished to make up myself, I accept your offer of the female C. furcata. :D

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Hi Gordon
Sorry to hear of your woes out there. This seems to have been happening to you for a while out there, looking back through old threads. Too many Jobsworths in Government.

Hi Stephane....what's this about getting the make-up on? That must have taken a while ;), sensible shoes or heels?
Now I'll have to ditch the Anagram I made from your name..Le Phanne Buster doesn't seem right anymore :|, then again with the sensible shoes..:D

Organsmoother

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Hi Stephane - thanks for the forgiveness - you know no insult was intended - unlike Roger I do not deliberately distort people's gender. I will send them out sometime in the future when I run out of dead dogs. You know of course that make up was invented in ancient Egypt and it was completely transgender in those days. It was orignally about protecting the eyes from glare when cutting stone - they even had workers strikes if the authorities did not supply it as needed. Or so the BBC told me.

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Dear Brundler Fly - yes your link is to the village of Kerkini on the western edge of Lake Kerkini - Roupel's Gorge where the dead dogs are is somewhat to the east - enlarge the map and follow the river upstram from the lake until it turns seriously north - the dogs are about 1km into the gorge - maybe you will see me if you are in satellite mode:D. It is all part of the Wetland Kerkini National Park.;)

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Well I now have some more flies that look a lot like C. furcata, but the variation in size is more thsn 100% so maybe the larger ones are something else.

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Location data = 41-17'28,3 north and 023-19'47,0 east.

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As with Thyreophora, according to McAlpine (1977) some authors thought that also this species would be extinct. He also mentiones that these species are more active in the cold season when nobody is collecting... Go ahead Gordon! Against the wind and snow, make dipterological history.

They have also been reported from Central Europe, so the season is starting. Visit the butchers' first...

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What would you recommend to find them? Some bones with some meat?

Do You guys think what Gordon found is a remote population, maybe one of the lasts or is it more abundant but rarely seen? Do they lay eggs also in cold season?

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I suspect the population is spread across northern Greece - but no-one is sampling - don't forget I have done a lot of malaise trapping here - 7 traps in 2007 and 20 sites in all, plus yellowpans and these are the first i have found. Besides road kills livestock die - goats, sheep, cows etc. Often they just lie where they fall - there were several cows and a buffalo along the river nearer the lake last spring for instance. The bones are still around. One question is how far do the adults disperse from a given carcass. Another is are they restricted to lowland. I am watching for larvae and I am sure I saw some small white movement in a crevice yesterday.

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I suppose they breed inside the bones, but so does the other Piophilids as well. There is also Coleopterans like Necrobia spp. that go in there. I do not think it is known if they hunt for Piophilid larvae or feed of the marrow.

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There has been quite a lot of this going on so I guess they must be laying eggs somewhere. Photo 29-11-2009 - these two are much bigger than the other Piophilid.

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Do you have an overview picture of the dog remains? Could be interesting to see what state they are in when they attract Centrophlebomyia.

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Dear Brundlefly,
Here is a photo of the first dog's remains - as I found it on the 23rd November. I photographed Centrophlebomyia furcata on the carcass on that day, but I don't know if it was there earlier. The legs of the tripod are 53 cm long when closed up as they are in the picture.

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This fly is among one of the most amazing thing in the Universe. Please collect for me that fantastic fly. This is almost in the top of wish list of flies!

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In that case you had better give me your postal address.;)

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:) thanks.

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This afternoon, whilst trying to sneak up on a pair of Golden Eagles (Which turned out to be out visiting friends, or just having a picnic) I found the fresh remains of a cow, some skin, otherwise all bone. There were C. furcata all over it, being very active in the 17C warmth, most unhelpful (photographically speaking). Of 23 flies caught off the skeleton 18 were C. furcata (assuming a correct determination on my part). The site was 7km west of the previous site and elevated 250 m ASL.

As I have already posted out new year gifts to Jorge, Tony, Phil and Stephane I propose to send this lot to Paul, as I have some other Piophilids to send him. If anybody else would like specimens they can contact Paul.

I would like to know if anybody knows of records of great size variety in this species. I do not have measuring facilities on my microscope but the size range (in terms of body length) is at least 100% and probably more - Paul can probably measure his when they arrive and I have asked Phil to do the same with those I sent him (handed to the N.P. Manager on Tuesday afternoon).

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I would like a few Gordon, you can send them to Paul as well! Thanks in advance,
Greetings

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I checked the specimens with the key to the two known species of Centrophlebomyia and they are furcata. Michelsen (1983) included the second species as anthropophaga but that has since been demonstrated to be a nomenclatorially invalid name to be considered a nomen dubium. The name under which we now know the species is orientalis Hendel, 1907. The latter has additional small setae next to the pair of large lateral scutellar setae (absent in furcata), has two fronto-orbital setae (presumed to be one in furcata but occasionally there are two with the large posterior one always placed on a black spot), and has larger eyes (genae about half as high as eyes, almost as high as eyes in furcata). C. orientalis also is smaller (more complicated character with the size variation observed) and is more glossy.
A character given in Michelsen's key that does not appear to apply is the one of the microtrichia on the wing membrane. The base of the wing in C. furcata is not supposed to have patches on the membrane that are devoid of microtrichia (or with very short microtrichia only) but in furcata specimens I have the bare patches are present.

The papers dealing with Centrophlobomyia I have seen do not mention anything specific about variation in adult size. Freidberg (1981) gave some illustrations, one with a couple in the intercopulatory stage. In this picture the male is about 30% bigger han the female. As this is a species that may have to do with scarce resources for larval food it is possible that (lack of sufficient) resources may influence the adult size considerably (see for example the large size variation in Scathophaga stercoraria).

Just to get all facts together: Who did already receive specimens of Centrophlobomyia and how many males and females did you get?

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I have 4 males and 4 females: one of the males is three times as large as the others, but the females are all of similar size. I agree that this is probably a phenomenon allied to scarce resources as a larva: see also the variability in e.g. Lucilia.

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1 male and 1 female for me, both 5 mm length.

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1 male, 1 female here. (5-6 mm size) I'll check the sizes later this weekend.

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One male (6.9mm) and one female (5.9mm), and belated, but heartfelt thanks. :) :):):)

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Yes I suspected the size variation was a larval fod thing, but I thought it might be nice to have a set of exact measurements.

Just to keep you guys posted, I am making arrangements, or trying to make arrangements to visit two vulture feeding stations, lots of cow and pig bones left lying around, one in Nestos, and one in Dadia (near the border with Turkey) in this way I may be able to get more data on distribution here in northern Greece.

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Just got back from a trip to Dadia Forest (Turkish border) and the Nestos Gorge (half way between Kerkini and Dadia), I successfully collected C. furcata at both sites - the Nestos site is at 690 metres and was blowing a gale, the flies were crawling around carefully, hard to find but there, Dadia was easy. Now I will try and get permission to visit vulture feeding site at Prespa (on the far western side of the country) - finally I will try to get to Majhorova in Bulgaria. Meanwhile I am researching other feeding sites in the Balkans.

Jorge do you know anybody who could check out the feeding sites in Spain.
http://www.birdgu...asp?a=1297
Not sure what anybody would find, as they don't seem to use whole carcasses in all the sites, as they do in Greece.

All the material I collect will go to Paul for measurement - I'm feeling that size is important OK:D - anybody who wants specimens for their collections should contact him, or come and visit me here in Greece.:S

Centrophlebomyia furcata,
how I love your name.
Though I have mouthed a lot of flies
they just don't sound the same.

Centro
phlebo
my i a

also called 'furcata'

Is a fly
about which I
have just obtained some data.

:(

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yes, Gordon. I can ask if any my Spanish friends can check those sites. When I have any news on this I will inform you.

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Thanks Jorge. It will be interesting.

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So, who were still in need of specimens of this interesting species? I am working my way through Gordon's vials of this year's catches and just opened the one from Dadia Forest. The Roupel's Gorge one is also still next to the microscope...

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Ikke!! :D:D:D

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You were already on the list. :P

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Hi everyone.

I just send a personnal message to G. Ramel : Colleagues and I just found C. anthropophaga in France and, when we compare our pictures to the first picture send by Gordon we feel this specimen was a C anthropophaga. As it seems that Gordon send some specimens to the members of this forum, could you check those specimens according to the identification key provided by Mei et al. (2013) ?
You can e-mail me directly at laurent.pelozuelo/arobase/univ-tlse3.fr

C anthopophaga is less darker and more orangish ; the thorax bear fewer non microtomentose area (area that are visible on pictures as dark black spots) ; the microtomentose area on the occiput is restrictred to the occiput (while it extend frontward along the eyes margin on C furcata).

Thank you for your help,
Bien cordialement,
Laurent,

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I noticed in this long discussion: "I heard Thyreophora and alikes may be virtually extinct from Europe". Yes, of course. To another post in the same discussion: "(C. furcata) known from Czech Republic and Sardinia according to FE". From the territory of Czech Republic it was known just in 1860s (then this country was a part of Oesterreich-Ungarn).