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 Anthomyia pluvialis male
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| johnes81 |
Posted on 18-05-2018 19:25
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 Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16 |
male - Berlin - May 2018 very difficult to dissect genitalia. I didn't expect the strange fifth sternite. Plus the cerci and surstyli are very odd. I will try dorsal and more lateral tomorrow if it is necessary. I'm too tired today  this is my first Anthomyia species. johnes81 attached the following image:  [50.04Kb] Edited by johnes81 on 20-05-2018 15:58 John and Nini. Naturalists not experts. |
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| johnes81 |
Posted on 18-05-2018 19:26
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Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16 |
lateral 1
johnes81 attached the following image:  [57.2Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts. |
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| johnes81 |
Posted on 18-05-2018 19:26
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Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16 |
posterior
johnes81 attached the following image:  [49.6Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts. |
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| johnes81 |
Posted on 18-05-2018 19:26
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Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16 |
lateral 2
johnes81 attached the following image:  [58.74Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts. |
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| johnes81 |
Posted on 18-05-2018 19:27
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Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16 |
head
johnes81 attached the following image:  [79.13Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts. |
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| johnes81 |
Posted on 18-05-2018 19:27
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Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16 |
thorax
johnes81 attached the following image:  [140.21Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts. |
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| johnes81 |
Posted on 18-05-2018 19:28
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Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16 |
lateral closeup thorax
johnes81 attached the following image:  [115.8Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts. |
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| johnes81 |
Posted on 18-05-2018 19:28
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Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16 |
arista
johnes81 attached the following image:  [85.72Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts. |
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| johnes81 |
Posted on 18-05-2018 19:28
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Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16 |
fifth sternite, which is really strange to me.
johnes81 attached the following image:  [118.25Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts. |
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| johnes81 |
Posted on 18-05-2018 19:29
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Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16 |
genitalia
johnes81 attached the following image:  [111.46Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts. |
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| johnes81 |
Posted on 18-05-2018 19:49
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Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16 |
ps. if there is a chance that this is procellaris, then we need to be certain because it is not listed for Germany. Thus, i believe it is a first record. Faunaeuropaea doesn't list it for Germany either. I am clearing the genitalia if we need better photos.
John and Nini. Naturalists not experts. |
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| javanerkelens |
Posted on 18-05-2018 21:11
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 Member Location: Netherlands Posts: 2962 Joined: 18.10.07 |
I will answer you sunday or monday on this one..... Till than..... Johanna Edited by javanerkelens on 18-05-2018 21:13 |
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| johnes81 |
Posted on 18-05-2018 21:55
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Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16 |
cerci surstyli better view 1
johnes81 attached the following image:  [76.66Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts. |
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| johnes81 |
Posted on 18-05-2018 21:55
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Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16 |
cerci surstyli better view 2
johnes81 attached the following image:  [91.74Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts. |
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| johnes81 |
Posted on 18-05-2018 21:56
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Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16 |
cerci surstyli better view 3
johnes81 attached the following image:  [81.76Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts. |
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| tristram |
Posted on 19-05-2018 11:02
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Member Location: Reading, UK Posts: 1329 Joined: 27.06.10 |
The last image better matches pluvialis than procellaris in Michael Ackland's draft key. In particular the lobe on the inner faces of the surstyli has no indentation in line with the tip of the cercal plate in procellaris but pluvialis does have it. Also the side view of the surstylus in #10 looks more like pluvialis which has it more 'bent' than procellaris. And the longest arista hairs in #8 are only about 0.5 the arista base width which again matches pluvialis rather than procellaris (1.0 the arista base width). |
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| johnes81 |
Posted on 19-05-2018 12:02
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Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16 |
Thank you, Tristram but I will wait for Johanna's opinion. I am not interested in Michael Ackland's keys. Hence, the posting of genitalia. I seek expert opinions with specimens because i really want a positive id. I managed to find expert material last night: Anthomyia pluvialis complex in Europe by expert Dr. Verner Michelsen. I think that the genitalia looks more like procellaris but my dissections are not perfect. We will see what Johanna has to say. I hope that noone thinks that i am being rude but i am picky. If i want an id of a Sarc, i use Pape. If i want an id on a Calliphoridae, then i use Rognes. If i want help with a Tephritidae, then i will ask Valery or Ben Hamers. If i have a tach, then i will seek out Theo. I love Paul Beuk's opinion on various subjects. I miss Stephane with Muscidae because Nikita usually ignores my posts. Here, Anthomyiidae, i seek Johanna's opinion or Michelsen. I am tenacious about a correct id.
Edited by johnes81 on 19-05-2018 12:10 John and Nini. Naturalists not experts. |
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| johnes81 |
Posted on 19-05-2018 12:08
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Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16 |
Nota bene: I am very tired lately and i made an error yesterday while dissecting the genitalia. I am used to spiders, thus, i use clove oil to clear the genitalia for better viewing. The clove oil can be watery at times and not good with diptera. I had trouble separating the aedeagus last night. After moving parts out of the oil, i seem to have lost the aedeagus. I think that i found it but i cannot be sure since i have not seen the aedeagus of an Anthomyia species. Thus, i will post my photo and hopefully this is correct. However, i seem to have broken the setae that is useful for id. Perhaps we can judge the shape alone? sorry. I have been exhausted lately and i sometimes make mistakes.
johnes81 attached the following image:  [50.59Kb] John and Nini. Naturalists not experts. |
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| javanerkelens |
Posted on 20-05-2018 15:06
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Member Location: Netherlands Posts: 2962 Joined: 18.10.07 |
Tristram is right.....Anthomyia pluvialis! Johanna |
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| johnes81 |
Posted on 20-05-2018 15:57
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Member Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 1978 Joined: 15.10.16 |
I just finished dissecting spiders epigyne. I already know it is pluvialis because the pre- and postgonites match the drawings in Michelsen's work. Plus, procellaris is not listed for Germany. However, i've seen several posts here at diptera.info where a similar looking Anthomyia from Germany was identified as procellaris sans genitalia. I figure that it is either pluvialis or i am not seeing it correctly. I wanted your opinion about this. Tristram is always helpful but in this case, i want your opinion. I want to see if procellaris is here or not. So far, i cannot find official records. I only know that Schumann listed it, then Ziegler is supposed to have found it in a box along with pluvialis. Yet it is still not listed for Germany. I've seen similar Anthomyia for three years now at my balcony and i always insist that it is pluvialis based only on instinct. Now i prove it. Thank you, Johanna. I also Thank Tristram but i really wanted Johanna's opinion because i want to prove or disprove that procellaris is here. I will continue the search ... John and Nini. Naturalists not experts. |
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but don't see the image in the post.